View Full Version : slim but ugly.. fat but pretty..
sally91
14-09-2010, 01:19 PM
which girls do u prefer?? slim but ugly.. fat but pretty..???
tkongkia
14-09-2010, 05:30 PM
both also can . cos most of all must have chemistry . :)
shark89
14-09-2010, 05:33 PM
Fat but pretty. At least she's pretty. Fat, she can go slimming centre and after that, she will be both slim and pretty liao lor.
If she's ugly? Maybe need to do more than a complete makeover. So for me, fat but pretty. :)
Demon
14-09-2010, 05:41 PM
I rather bonk fat but pretty...
I see too many slim but ugly alot.:(:(
ol'coyote
14-09-2010, 05:42 PM
erm...me all oso can lah...
synyster
14-09-2010, 05:44 PM
fat + pretty > slim + ugly
Arucard
14-09-2010, 06:22 PM
fat how u consider fat if abit meaty why not but like some bro mention chemistry is the key
kosheen
14-09-2010, 06:31 PM
honestly, most ppl will fuck anything that moves.:D
naturegreen
14-09-2010, 06:33 PM
honestly, most ppl will fuck anything that moves.:D
MUahaha this is funny! I like it.
Absolute
14-09-2010, 07:16 PM
It's slim but ugly for me. I am turned off by fat women.
ct2000ct
14-09-2010, 08:23 PM
Me got pussy can already.Cover the HQ and bomb the base.
jplover
14-09-2010, 09:05 PM
I think in a relationship, it pretty boils down to being able to click with your partner as the main point.. Appearance changes over time so it doesn't really bothers me..
Metalscrew
14-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Depends on hw fat is fat. If she's 'chubby' but pretty, i will chose her over slim ugly...no offence but if u bring a pretty chubby gal out, ppl will assume dat u r of a certain calibre who is respectable n other gals will feel gd abt u 2. Bring a ugly slim gal out tells the world u r more likely into body(Unless dere really is chemistry).
Plus if a 'chubby' gal can look good n makeup, etc n all juz for u, means u mean alot to her n is a fundamental to a great r/s.
nuclearkid
14-09-2010, 09:51 PM
What if she becomes fat over time, started off fat/pretty but becomes fucking fat/pretty? I thought my friend's wife was decent looking before marriage though a little meaty. But she really let go after two kids and they are both fat now. I guess if they start doing the do, you can't call it doggie style anymore right? I joked with my friend and called it pig style. He's ok with it, he knows he needs to lose weight. His wife, on the other hand, will probably ban him from going out with me. :D Anyway, don't mean anything impolite to our bigger girth friends, its just a light banter...
Back to the original question, I think I'll pass on both, neither pretty/fat nor ugly/thin. Its not that I am picky, will gladly take the a not-so-pretty/not-so-fat or not-so-ugly/not-so-slim. But doing it with someone I am not really attracted physically makes me feel lousy after the deed...
simple2kee
14-09-2010, 09:58 PM
which girls do u prefer?? slim but ugly.. fat but pretty..???
may i know which category u belong to? :D
hoA123
14-09-2010, 10:17 PM
fat but pretty; i tried once...halfway will lose steam and needa go mind over matter.
slim but ugly; old phase will work here. Cover the FACE and BOMB THE BASE!
littlepok
14-09-2010, 10:28 PM
slim but ugly. it is easy, once u begin, start with 69 (can't see face). once start bonking, go doggie ( can't see face). wanna change pattern? reverse doggie (can't see face). wanna cum? lie flat on bed ask her go down suck till u cum (still can't see face). fuck finish immedately fake tired and go sleep, hope the nightmare will be over when u wake up (she go home herself).
just joking, i think like that actually v disrespectful to the lady. all women, fat/sli, pretty/ugly, has their right to have a good fuck, just a matter of which guy do it for them. a man's meat is another's poison. u think ugly but slim, another will see them like supermodel, can't wait to F.
Xgenre
14-09-2010, 11:26 PM
fat can become slim, likewise slim can become fat.
But......
ugly can never be pretty, likewise pretty rarely becomes ugly.
So, pretty is more important than slim/fat.
Machiam like F maths logic right? :p
ManageYou
15-09-2010, 12:12 AM
Slim and ugly i believe, but fat but prettey:eek:
Torch_Man
15-09-2010, 12:34 AM
let me use a "deep" word:
chemistry or feel.
of course, everyone prefer an ideal partner but in reality, how do we achieve that???? its really a veri subjective matters though sharing is good.
personally, even fat and ugly whom i know - i am alright with them (even sex) however i go for something different which is rather dangerous, to a certain degree: communication
what is the meaning of bonking somebody, then disappear forever??? i wont do that.
jz sharin.
Torch :)
neogeo2
15-09-2010, 06:45 AM
probably fat but pretty, cause at least she's got a chance to slim down and still be pretty
but if your ugly, then there really isn't any hope.
Super_Hooligan
15-09-2010, 06:56 AM
For me, every hole is a goal!:D
Bangster
15-09-2010, 01:45 PM
probably fat but pretty, cause at least she's got a chance to slim down and still be pretty
but if your ugly, then there really isn't any hope.
Hhahaha this is excellent observation.
One friend of mine once said to me, it's really tough to be born a girl. Once she grew up and look in the mirror to find out she's ugly, that's it. Whole life is gonna suck.
tatata21
15-09-2010, 01:55 PM
what about no and no?
if liddat ownself do better.. how many times u have to reject WL or change a masseur. you want the best you can get at that moment especially if you are paying for it...
(on top)
not v.true...
if ugly... do more doggy.
if fat... really hard to hide, limited positions, concentrate on face only.
if ugly... can do cosmetic surgery.
if fat, can exercise/slimming centre/lipo then skin tuck.
if both, do both... one thing really hardly have chance to change is height and character.
zeigeist
17-11-2010, 03:21 PM
beauty and chubby - she can exercise :)
steviewander
17-11-2010, 03:56 PM
honestly, most ppl will fuck anything that moves.:D
wahahha.. gd one
Fellow bro wat if it Patricia Mok vs Chen liping???
lao_teeko
18-11-2010, 02:25 PM
1 famous phrase...
im fat..but you are ugly!
and i can diet :)
but honestly...i rather have the fat & pretty gal...
leecs
18-11-2010, 03:06 PM
I only go for true love. Hehe.
Can I choose normal looking with normal body?
cockenadan
18-11-2010, 03:09 PM
which girls do u prefer?? slim but ugly.. fat but pretty..???
hi sis, why do you want to know? you seeking fb? :D
Ichigo_Kurosaki
18-11-2010, 04:20 PM
I am sure most guys wouldn't mind as long as these 2 types have the necessary skill and things (not too much excess baggages) at the right places.
As for myself, I will go for the slim girl cos I am fatophobic (no offense intended, this is a very rare medicial condition I been suffering since primary school). However, I won't let a pretty face go to waste, I would advise the fat girl to slim down and as a token of my appreciation for her, I will cover all her slimming / weight loss expanses. ;):D
I am sure most guys wouldn't mind as long as these 2 types have the necessary skill and things (not too much excess baggages) at the right places.
As for myself, I will go for the slim girl cos I am fatophobic (no offense intended, this is a very rare medicial condition I been suffering since primary school). However, I won't let a pretty face go to waste, I would advise the fat girl to slim down and as a token of my appreciation for her, I will cover all her slimming / weight loss expanses. ;):D
Swee!!! That's the spirit! But eh.. Bonking can burn fats - u can help her without forking out a cent!
talismann
18-11-2010, 06:26 PM
hi sis, why do you want to know? you seeking fb? :D
Abraham Maslow said "If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."
So I guess by extension, if one is looking for a free fuck, every question asked makes him wonder if she wants a fuck.:D
jasdude
18-11-2010, 06:44 PM
fat can become slim, likewise slim can become fat.
But......
ugly can never be pretty, likewise pretty rarely becomes ugly.
So, pretty is more important than slim/fat.
BRO ! your equation works for me ! :D
BUT different people has different preferences . some like their meat slim some like it fat . some don't even look at them and just eat cos the feeling is all the same when it cums . to each his own . peace to all !
possession
18-11-2010, 08:46 PM
Imho, ugly can still be able to turn pretty..
Look at those koreans, many of them went for the plastic surgery..
It actually worked for many of them..
in this aspect korea is the place to perform wonder.
by the way, any bros mind that their partner to undergo knives to turn pretty?
ant0512
18-11-2010, 09:06 PM
My ex wife and ex gf are those meaty type.. esp my ex gf.. weigh much heavier than me like 70 to 55.. but she's got those angel face.. Darn.. miss her so much.. feel like crying while typing.. :(
SGnewB
18-11-2010, 11:47 PM
I personally think that no gals are really ugly.. If she is ugly but blessed with a killer hot bod (super slim waist, super curvy figure and nice big pear shaped boobs with pink nips).. I think I wouldn't mind having that everyday..
:p:p:p
hoosdathu
19-11-2010, 12:52 AM
depends on how fat...
if chubby type with big boobs of course better than slim but ugly one...
but if fat like tub with saggy A cup i rather wank myself :(
MultiOrgasGuy
19-11-2010, 01:04 AM
If both of us got sexual chemistry, it doesn't matter even if looks and figure are not ideal. I have bonked all types of gals: young, old, skinny, obese, pretty, ugly etc. I once had a few good rounds with a gal who was fat and ugly, but she was horny and good in bed, and I missed her.
Ok, if I really have to choose, I will go for fat n pretty.
Kaka Clan
19-11-2010, 01:15 AM
Of cos is fat la... Slim is dry dun come so easy... I like fat young lady they are hard working and lots of style....
Cheers
kaka
Sex4Love
19-11-2010, 01:22 AM
I prefer girls with a bit of flesh, too skinny is not nice.
I'm skinny myself and if my girl is skinny, when I hug her, will be like bones knocking bones.
Make love more, don't make more enemies (http://sextisfaction.wordpress.com)
sally91
21-10-2011, 06:58 PM
http://$$$$$.org/forums/showthread.php?281601-My-Field-report-on-sally91......&highlight=Sally91
my thread =)
Angle of hell
22-10-2011, 01:08 PM
fat can become slim, likewise slim can become fat.
But......
ugly can never be pretty, likewise pretty rarely becomes ugly.
So, pretty is more important than slim/fat.
Machiam like F maths logic right? :p
Tis is gd.. I like ur math formula!! Hahaha
Angle of hell
22-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Can u kindly sponsor me even those I m not tAt pretty :)
I am sure most guys wouldn't mind as long as these 2 types have the necessary skill and things (not too much excess baggages) at the right places.
As for myself, I will go for the slim girl cos I am fatophobic (no offense intended, this is a very rare medicial condition I been suffering since primary school). However, I won't let a pretty face go to waste, I would advise the fat girl to slim down and as a token of my appreciation for her, I will cover all her slimming / weight loss expanses. ;):D
kragen
22-10-2011, 05:22 PM
If have to pay then must be slim and pretty. If free then cannot complain. Are you free?
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 05:51 PM
slim but ugly. it is easy, once u begin, start with 69 (can't see face). once start bonking, go doggie ( can't see face). wanna change pattern? reverse doggie (can't see face). wanna cum? lie flat on bed ask her go down suck till u cum (still can't see face). fuck finish immedately fake tired and go sleep, hope the nightmare will be over when u wake up (she go home herself).
Buahahahaha....!!! :D
Another funny thread to camp! I guess all combinations, forumla and equations have been discussed yeah?
I also got that what fatophobia thingy. So if u point a gun at my head to pick a choice with no time to help her slim down first, I would adopt the "cover the face & bomb the base" approach. The tips above will help a lot! LMAO...
Another style is spoon position; just lie on the side behind, grab the boobies & bury my face in her hair (assume smell nice la) and whack from behind. LoL
Ichigo_Kurosaki
22-10-2011, 06:58 PM
.....I also got that what fatophobia thingy. So if u point a gun at my head to pick a choice with no time to help her slim down first, I would adopt the "cover the face & bomb the base" approach. The tips above will help a lot! LMAO...
Another style is spoon position; just lie on the side behind, grab the boobies & bury my face in her hair (assume smell nice la) and whack from behind. LoL
You and me same same. If fat but pretty (I agreed that some fat girls are really very pretty with very nice almond eyes, nice features, fair complexion and super personality) then I will psych myself up as if I am fucking a pregnant Christy Chung wihle ignoring and turning a blind eye around the stomach or belly area applying doggy and sideways positions :D It's like trading in derivatives in hopes of scoring big payoff when she slim down :p However, I have to lay down some rules: No cowgirl, standing or seated position cos of safety reasons ;)......................................But ...................then again, we are all humans with emotion and fundamentally involves with physiological arousal, expressive behaviors and conscious experience, we never really knows, we might fall in love with someone who is slim but ugly or fat but pretty...hard to say.....really...Cos true Love is beyond the body and look ;)
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 07:09 PM
If fat but pretty (I agreed that some fat girls are really very pretty with very nice almond eyes, nice features, fair complexion and super personality)
Now, I'm assuming we're all talking about hippos type of "fat" here :D So, it's impossible to find any hippos to have "nice features" especially since the prettiness of the face includes the shape, which will be round, flabby and double/triple chins right?
Anyone can give links to a "fat but pretty" photo from the web?
Chen liping CMI lah, pls!
SwingSwingSwing
22-10-2011, 07:40 PM
i think most guys will prefer girls to be slim and pretty. best of both worlds. :o
Ichigo_Kurosaki
22-10-2011, 07:45 PM
Now, I'm assuming we're all talking about hippos type of "fat" here :D So, it's impossible to find any hippos to have "nice features" especially since the prettiness of the face includes the shape, which will be round, flabby and double/triple chins right?
Anyone can give links to a "fat but pretty" photo from the web?
Chen liping CMI lah, pls!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mpiRtwNuPo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftNny490wLg&feature=related
Poohbear99
22-10-2011, 08:02 PM
Fat but pretty anytime! I prefer my girls who are fleshy , not just prefer but actually get really turned on by fleshy girls :)
justkimmy
22-10-2011, 08:09 PM
Eh not bad, most guys prefer fat but pretty! I've got hope already.
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Bro Ichigo Kurosaki, that one not fat la... that one I don't mind.
Eh not bad, most guys prefer fat but pretty! I've got hope already.
Do you mind posting a photo of yourself (erase the face) so we can tell you if your "fat-ness" can make it or not? I'm just curious ;)
Poohbear99
22-10-2011, 08:29 PM
Eh not bad, most guys prefer fat but pretty! I've got hope already.
Haha u definitely got hope! :p all char bot got their market . Some like ribs some like meat! Young ah di here prefer meat though !
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 08:36 PM
I did further research into this "fat but pretty" thingy online.
Browsed through pages of "fat pretty girls (http://www.google.com/search?q=fat+pretty+girls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=657)" photos here but really can't understand why bros here say there are "fat but pretty" girls. Why got such girls??
But, if the fat girl goes on a diet and slim down to reveal a slim and pretty face, then I may agree. Or maybe a pretty girl did not watch her weight and become fat, knowing that she can have the potential to be slim again, then OK it's call "fat but potentially pretty". However, with a really fat body, I'm still trying to find one with a "pretty face" on it (not potential, but during that instant). Anyone with better appreciation on this can enlighten me?
I can't help but to think that it's a myth there's such thing as "fat & pretty", no offense, just curiosity. Is it just a phrase to let all those fat girls still habour some hope? Which is not good, because then they will not think of slimming down. It should be: "if you want to look pretty, you should not be fat.". Sorry, I'm digressing!
justkimmy
22-10-2011, 08:56 PM
Do you mind posting a photo of yourself (erase the face) so we can tell you if your "fat-ness" can make it or not? I'm just curious ;)
I'm not that silly as to post nude pics of myself on the web. :p
justkimmy
22-10-2011, 09:00 PM
I did further research into this "fat but pretty" thingy online.
Browsed through pages of "fat pretty girls (http://www.google.com/search?q=fat+pretty+girls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=657)" photos here but really can't understand why bros here say there are "fat but pretty" girls. Why got such girls??
But, if the fat girl goes on a diet and slim down to reveal a slim and pretty face, then I may agree. Or maybe a pretty girl did not watch her weight and become fat, knowing that she can have the potential to be slim again, then OK it's call "fat but potentially pretty". However, with a really fat body, I'm still trying to find one with a "pretty face" on it (not potential, but during that instant). Anyone with better appreciation on this can enlighten me?
I can't help but to think that it's a myth there's such thing as "fat & pretty", no offense, just curiosity. Is it just a phrase to let all those fat girls still habour some hope? Which is not good, because then they will not think of slimming down. It should be: "if you want to look pretty, you should not be fat.". Sorry, I'm digressing!
I think there's a thing called "fat & pretty". Some female entertainers can be fat, but they've got pretty facial features like big eyes and such.
But every guy has his own definition of fat what.
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 09:11 PM
I'm not that silly as to post nude pics of myself on the web. :p
I think there's a thing called "fat & pretty". Some female entertainers can be fat, but they've got pretty facial features like big eyes and such.
But every guy has his own definition of fat what.
I think I'm too analytical. Sis justskinny, sorry didn't mean to ask u to exposed yourself.
soul_vision
22-10-2011, 09:16 PM
why not you choose slim but pretty one :p
Ichigo_Kurosaki
22-10-2011, 09:44 PM
.....I can't help but to think that it's a myth there's such thing as "fat & pretty"
I think the term should be: Fat with hidden beauty :D
Like an unpolished jade :p
goodpartner
22-10-2011, 09:58 PM
Some female entertainers can be fat, but they've got pretty facial features like big eyes and such.
Bro, can you name one?
If we're talking about those with heavy make-ups which is a necessity in entertainment line, then I would quote the phrase "There is no ugly women, only lazy ones" because that "slim but ugly" girl can be transformed to becum "pretty" too; assuming ugly here means no deformity involved.
I think the term should be: Fat with hidden beauty :D
Like an unpolished jade :p
YES yes yes, bro, this is what I mean :cool:
It's just up in our head when we "think" it's possible to have "fat & pretty" girl since we all know how a pretty face can look like, then imagine that head on a fat body. In reality, such a combination does NOT exist.
I stand to be corrected with a photo of a "fat & pretty" women without those make-ups.
evo5speakers
22-10-2011, 10:22 PM
fat(chubby) but pretty!
there are no ugly people, just lazy people!
slim + pretty = GOOD
chubby + pretty = acceptable > slim + not very good looking
fat + pretty = who knows of anyone? I also want to see sia!
Poohbear99
23-10-2011, 03:16 AM
Bro, can you name one?
If we're talking about those with heavy make-ups which is a necessity in entertainment line, then I would quote the phrase "There is no ugly women, only lazy ones" because that "slim but ugly" girl can be transformed to becum "pretty" too; assuming ugly here means no deformity involved.
YES yes yes, bro, this is what I mean :cool:
It's just up in our head when we "think" it's possible to have "fat & pretty" girl since we all know how a pretty face can look like, then imagine that head on a fat body. In reality, such a combination does NOT exist.
I stand to be corrected with a photo of a "fat & pretty" women without those make-ups.
Bro what seems pretty for u may not seem pretty for me vice versa . Fleshy girls with good features may turn u off but it wakes my junior immediately . To each his own :)
Flagship
23-10-2011, 11:20 AM
fat(chubby) but pretty!
there are no ugly people, just lazy people!
slim + pretty = GOOD
chubby + pretty = acceptable > slim + not very good looking
fat + pretty = who knows of anyone? I also want to see sia!
fat + pretty = white shark ( da bai sha -taiwanese):rolleyes:
goodpartner
23-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Bro what seems pretty for u may not seem pretty for me vice versa . ... . To each his own :)
U are right bro, it's very subjective and I did not disagree.
I'm just curious how a "fat but pretty" girl look like to those who appreciate them.
Poohbear99
23-10-2011, 06:14 PM
U are right bro, it's very subjective and I did not disagree.
I'm just curious how a "fat but pretty" girl look like to those who appreciate them.
Lol dont know how to describe How they look to me . I just know I would fuck the brains outta them anytime!
mrate79
24-10-2011, 07:10 AM
Lol this thread is hilarious.
I prefer fat but pretty mainly cos they know how enjoy life and are always jovial. Slim but ugly tend to always be grumpy. Hanging out w skinnies can really suck. Bigger women are more fun.
Of course whatever extra happens later is between you and them. :)
SantaFairy
25-10-2011, 04:08 AM
Turn their way round, slim but pretty n fat but ugly. Which u prefer??
Think be it ugly or fat both still can cure. I watch the show ' Extreme make over', Wow wow wow, really can change a person's look lor... Just need to maintain gua. :p
Ichigo_Kurosaki
25-10-2011, 08:40 AM
Fat with hidden chio-ness like Joyce Cheng Yan-yee 郑欣宜 (daughter of Lydia Shum and Adam Cheng) be nice. :D:p
http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz286/Ichigo_photo_album/21101VL8-0.jpg
http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz286/Ichigo_photo_album/whe0670.jpg
只要努力节食缩食,包包面也会变瓜子脸 :D:p
http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz286/Ichigo_photo_album/12605489_41n.jpg
diana1985
26-10-2011, 03:09 AM
Now, I'm assuming we're all talking about hippos type of "fat" here :D So, it's impossible to find any hippos to have "nice features" especially since the prettiness of the face includes the shape, which will be round, flabby and double/triple chins right?
Anyone can give links to a "fat but pretty" photo from the web?
Chen liping CMI lah, pls!
I did further research into this "fat but pretty" thingy online.
Browsed through pages of "fat pretty girls (http://www.google.com/search?q=fat+pretty+girls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=657)" photos here but really can't understand why bros here say there are "fat but pretty" girls. Why got such girls??
But, if the fat girl goes on a diet and slim down to reveal a slim and pretty face, then I may agree. Or maybe a pretty girl did not watch her weight and become fat, knowing that she can have the potential to be slim again, then OK it's call "fat but potentially pretty". However, with a really fat body, I'm still trying to find one with a "pretty face" on it (not potential, but during that instant). Anyone with better appreciation on this can enlighten me?
I can't help but to think that it's a myth there's such thing as "fat & pretty", no offense, just curiosity. Is it just a phrase to let all those fat girls still habour some hope? Which is not good, because then they will not think of slimming down. It should be: "if you want to look pretty, you should not be fat.". Sorry, I'm digressing!
U are right bro, it's very subjective and I did not disagree.
I'm just curious how a "fat but pretty" girl look like to those who appreciate them.
Hiya .. i will give you a pic... tell me hw you would rate her ... as in good looking or not good looking
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/luvgackt/abc/P5310006.jpg
goodpartner
26-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Hiya .. i will give you a pic... tell me hw you would rate her ... as in good looking or not good looking
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/luvgackt/abc/P5310006.jpg
Bro/Sis, thx for the effort. Will upz u later (I mean rep pts)
I rest my case :D
underage2010
26-10-2011, 09:09 PM
天底下没有丑女人、只有懒女人。
diana1985
26-10-2011, 11:07 PM
Bro/Sis, thx for the effort. Will upz u later (I mean rep pts)
I rest my case :D
:) so now u know, fat n pretty do exist ya :)
goodpartner
27-10-2011, 02:56 AM
:) so now u know, fat n pretty do exist ya :)
Where is the pic? U removed?
I say I rest my case only... ;)
diana1985
27-10-2011, 03:27 AM
Where is the pic? U removed?
I say I rest my case only... ;)
ahhh ... yupz ya ...
just for you to see ..
so rest yr case means ? hmmmmm .......
HOTROD23
08-12-2011, 02:02 AM
Sis diana1985.....
What happened to your thread.
Are you still doing it?
x1fox2
08-12-2011, 03:53 AM
i prefer meaty woman coz they more sexy. and some chubby girls actually very pretty.
sgspycam
08-12-2011, 01:29 PM
its not fat BUT pretty.. its fat AND pretty...
i love fat women, and i love pretty women!
so for me, that's an EASY choice!!
Fat women have more love to give :D
aiyo how to define a person which is fat and pretty or slim and ugly ???
Ann
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